July 11, 2019 *Disclaimer* Hey everyone! Below is my most recent podcast transcript and video featuring Michael Rabin of LaserCap! We used the best available transcription service. Please ignore some of the misspellings, and vocal pauses. We hope you enjoy this very insightful discussion with one of the leading hair doctors out there: Michael Rabin. If you would like to know even more about LaserCap, please contact us here! LaserCap is great treatment for your scalp and hair follicles! Dr. Anil Shah: (00:00) I’m really proud to introduce our guest today. Who is Dr. Michael Raben. Dr. Michael Raben is not only a doctor, but he is the inventor and founder, of LaserCap company. We can see that cap flapping in the background. Whoa, that’s cool. And this was formed in 2006, he collaborated with another doctor. Dr. David Smith. Collaborated with their Harvard based photo medicine expert, Dr. Michael Hamblin, and they with another doctor, Doctor Robert Haber came up and innovated this light based device for global beauty and health industries. The first commercial product that was available was LaserCap. And so, we’re going to talk about that a little bit. And this is one of the first products. The first product that affects, thinning of the hair. Patients at the need of hair. This affects up to 50% of adult women. Who knows, the percentage of men probably higher depending on what age we’re talking about. 80% And you know everyone’s going to have some sort of hair loss. So we’re going to talk about this. Before we get started here: What was kind of your driving force inventing LaserCap, so what was kind of the steps that took place for you to kind of come up with LaserCap?Michael Rabin: (01:27) Oh Gosh. Well, as you see I’m a hair loss suffer, this is all, this is all transplant right in the front here in the back. All scout micro-pigmentation, I’m essentially bald. And uh, the laser cap is for patients with earlier thinning hair. The follicles are gone. You’re not going to revive them. This is for underperforming follicles and the, and the light, the mechanism which we’ll get into I’m sure later, it basically revs up the, uh, the cellular respiration in the follicle improves hair production.Michael Rabin: (02:06) I Did this as you know, for the children. I did this for the, for future generations because it was a little late for me.Dr. Anil Shah: (02:13) So what took you to that part and say, hey, let’s bring this onto market. How do I make this into market? What were some of those steps that kind of brought LaserCap to fruition?Michael Rabin: (02:22) Well, I assembled the team. I recruited the top photo medicine, guy in the country, Mike Hamblin out of Harvard. I recruited a very good optical physicist, MIT Phd, David Smith who happens to be a local guy in Cleveland. And then I collaborated with one of the top, hair surgeons in the world: Bob Haber. Bob, who is a board certified dermatologist, not a plastics guy, but dermatologists, they can, you know, when they’re trying, they can do transplant. With that collaboration created, we created LaserCap came out of the lab and like 2010 with the first embodiment of it. And it has the dubious distinction of being the most widely copied, a little trouble with the patents, but I have new stuff that, you know, they don’t know what I’m doing next. It’s the most widely copied technology for a light based hair growth in the world.Dr. Anil Shah: (03:21) Wow. That’s it. That’s both a great honor. And it’s also, you know, it’s probably a source of frustration. They say, if you can’t beat him, you copy it, right?Michael Rabin: (03:31) No, we only work with physicians and all the copies go try to go to the consumer and it just doesn’t work out. This needs to be professionally administered. So we only work with doctors.Dr. Anil Shah: (03:44) That kind of brings us to another question that kind of comes up. And one of the more common questions from my patients is, um, you know, here’s LaserCap and here is something I can buy an Amazon for. Um, I dunno, a few hundred dollars. What’s the difference? Why do I need LaserCap?Michael Rabin: (04:02) Big Difference. And I actually, uh, I’m going to actually created a graph. But the big difference is we’re now finding in the, in the latest research that we need much higher energy levels. Now LaserCap. I’ve done some things with the circuitry, uh, to, uh, basically overdrive the lasers and still stay within compliance. And we promote much longer treatment times, but we basically want to be way up here on the, at this blue Arrow on the biologic effects curve, which is probably more than 20 times the output, 20, 20 times the energy that you’re going to get from one of these Amazon devices. And so these generally, these devices out there in the consumer market are grossly under-powered.Dr. Anil Shah: (04:52) Um, I, I think the other thing that we note is that people don’t understand that difference. And, uh, I know the answer, but I want you to explain it. It would be better for me, LED versus laser because people oftentimes think and LED is the same thing as a laser. Clearly it’s not. Um, so how would you describe it to one of my patients? Say, Hey, I’m talking to the founder of LaserCap. What’s the difference?Michael Rabin: (05:14) Well, these are lasers. Interesting. We’re finding that interesting. We were finding that it perhaps LEDs at very, very high power may be equivalent to the, to the lasers. The research may indicate that the photons are very high powered led may be equivalent, but the LEDs that you may find in the devices, again just grossly underpowered and then there’s a big difference in the, in the quality of the light. It’s a coherent, um, organize light goes in, uh, in very organized waves with laser and it’s an incoherent light source. Just kind of goes all over the place. It, the biologic effect may very different. It may be superior, we’re laser, but again, the jury is still allowed. A lthough they, the, the patients, consumers can not find LED at these very high powers in the consumer market.Dr. Anil Shah: (06:10) Kind of going back with this, this kind of, the foundation of this, this research all comes from, I think it’s a late 1960s. It is. Some animal studies looking at, um, basically wound heal. They originally, what were they looking for is 1968.Michael Rabin: (06:25) I didn’t, who was trying to, I think was a master. He was trying to, he was a radiating the back, of mice that EMJ than to try to induce a cancer in the skin. But this is red light. So it’s non ionizing and he was fine. And these, these, these mice were growing hair. And so it’s like, oh yeah, the light bulb went off. Oh My, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re stimulating a hair regrowth, which with his red line,Dr. Anil Shah: (06:55) it’s almost interesting that every hair growth, a discovery is an accident. It’s like Rogaine is an accident. It was for blood pressure, for has kind of an accident for prostate and laser cap. It’s not unusual that, hey, guess what, this was an accidental discovery. So it’s kind of, you see this theme with hair that, uh, all of these thingsMichael Rabin: (07:16) look at tennis cell and look at you. I mean, there’s been other medical discoveries, but here especially. Yeah.Dr. Anil Shah: (07:23) And that kind of leads to the next questions from patients. And I think the next question from patients, and you, we can answer this maybe with, um, uh, you know, kind of the satisfaction of patients doing this. A lot of patients say, does laser, does it really work? I’m, and if I’m a basic science guy, I like talking about looking at studies, looking at aspect. And you look at the study in the 1960s, you see that, you know, animals are growing hair, they’re actually healing wounds faster. You look in the what’s hot in the world of aesthetics and that’s kind of um, a red light versus blue light. And you see these things happening, how they affect our bodies on not just a cellular level but almost like a sub cellular level. And they asked me does it work? And I’m obviously saying obviously yes, but um, from the founder of laser cap, uh, your thoughts,Michael Rabin: (08:11) well, sure, sure. There’s, there’s quite a bit of literature now. You do a pub med search on lll t or photobiomodulation in hair and you’ll see a couple of hundred research papers in the last couple of years. And so there’s been quite a bit of research lately and the, the, the uh, double blind placebo controlled studies and the Meta analyses of these devices for hair regrowth all indicate where growing hair and the mechanism if you talk to handling a, yeah, the light is used in a whole range of conditions. They’re using it to treat depression, different wave length, a higher power getting to the brain. You’re using it for traumatic brain injury, reduce the morbidity and did with,Dr. Anil Shah: (08:56) uh, with stroke, with heart attack, any dysfunctional cellular process, any cells that have mitochondria where there’s some dysfunction are going to respond favorably to the light. And you know, handling can get into, I should have brought his charts, uh, because he’s got all, you know, all the biochemical pathways, um, mapped. But it’s basically it comes down to improved cellular respiration at the Mitochondria. Remember the Krebs cycle from your, your medical school days, ATP, that’s the fuel for the sale. It revs that up so you can get increased ATP production and then a whole cascade of biochemical events that was all at in a better functioning hairs are better functioning of follicles. It’s that, that keyword that you mentioned is Mitochondria, that sub cellular improvement. Uh, again, that’s anyone who’s in this, uh, city of the, of the doctor’s side. And then you have the health bloggers and I, I’ve listened to both sides of the argument and a both love Mitochondria. Mitochondria is become a really hot topic and red light and treating things that super hot. So I think it’s interesting. Anytime you say, I’m going to improve your mitochondrial function, um, you’re going to see some positives and it’s not surprising you’re seeing those positives happen in something like care.Michael Rabin: (10:13) Yeah, well that’s what we’re targeting here. I mean, we’re not going after a facial rejuvenation. We’re not trying to treat a depression or a, you know, a soft tissue injury. You know, this thing, this, and I’ve got to hear this, this embodiment kind of illustrates it. This kind of showcases attack. Yeah. It’s red light on the head. We’re going, you know, we’re targeting the follicle. This is the same technology as um, uh, the, you know, the shell devices, the shell, uh, but, but it showcases it so you can get a good visual of it. And we actually sell these, but they’re sold that at a premium.Dr. Anil Shah: (10:52) Um, so if you can pair those two devices, um, that, that’s a great topic because that’s the newest, the newest devices to show one, right. The one on the left, I mean I’m the, uh, that one. Correct.Michael Rabin: (11:01) Huh.Dr. Anil Shah: (11:03) And I have the one I wear every night. I, by the way, I could talk to my mind laser, laser cap experience. So I did a hair transplant, so I’m a hair transplant person as well. And you know, you noticed with laser cap that when I started wearing the device, um, I felt like my hair’s we’re growing a little faster. My other hairs were kind of going through there. And so, uh, for me, again, it’s one of those things I noticed that some of my hairs I, and I, I use, try cost me on my head to look at them. And I noticed that some of my hairs that were kind of on the miniaturized side, we’re actually kind of, um, kind of coming back a little bit. Um, my hair’s a little fluffier, um, and uh, that aspect of it. So, uh, I’m, uh, so for me looking at the different devices out there, I looked at the data and I thought laser cap had the, um, you know, the best, uh, technical hardware, the best set up. Um, so to me that was like, there was no brainer. And if you’re going to do something, which is, um, you, you know, you’re going to do that something that’s, it’s not, I’m gonna say time consuming, but it’s part of your ritual. You better make sure it works because, um, if you’re doing, just putting led on your head is doing nothing, what’s the point? It’s a waste of everyone’s time.Michael Rabin: (12:07) Well, that’s for sure. That’s for sure. So you’ve got to go, what patients are always calling me directly. Uh, hey, I want a laser camp. And I said, well, you need to go see a doctor. Well, can I get a little laser camp? And, and I tell him, go find a hair restoration position that you trust, that you believe in, and the rest will follow up. And if that dot provide you a laser cap, so be it. If they, if they don’t have him, call me and I’ll make sure that he started selling the laser tag.Dr. Anil Shah: (12:39) Yeah, it’s all, it’s all part of that. You compare the two different models of laser cap. So someone says, let’s compare these two models. Um, what are your, your thought process? So someone who’s looking at laser cap, I have the older shelvers in, there’s the newer version that’s more vented. Um, how would you, um, should I switch to the vented run? Should I,Michael Rabin: (12:59) well, the interesting thing about the venture, Warren, this is a, uh, this is, you know, I work with a lot of, um, uh, you know, now very high end plastic surgeons like yourself. But historically I worked with, uh, you know, just be pure transplant hair transplant quotes, and you do all sorts of sorts of surgeries all over the body, right.Dr. Anil Shah: (13:19) Only face and hair.Michael Rabin: (13:21) Oh, face and hair. Well, that’s plenty. Um, so, um, uh, historically it’s been these transplant surgeons, you know, just these pure, uh, surgeons and they’re always asking me for, you know, give me something more innovative. Give me something high tech looking. And so it was kind of a motivation to showcase the technology and to create something that, um, was, uh, what was unique. And so what we did with this, I’ll show you this, uh, how this goes. Uh, we created a, it’s a flat man. You pictured a device that has a, a front connector band that small, medium, large, extra large, so it conformally fits it, basically hugged your head. That’s nice. Uh, you know, you just determine the patient head size and a snap this thing together and I’ll put it back together and then I’ll put this baby on and you’ll just see how it, uh, how it goes. But it, but it’s the same underlying technology. You know, it’s the same. This is, happens to be a $300 device. What I’m wearing on here is a $224 divide, but it’s basically the same underlying tech. And so if we just put this thing on, you’ll see how it, uh, how it pays way. Whoa. My head.Dr. Anil Shah: (14:43) Oh, that’s nice.Michael Rabin: (14:44) Yeah. So here, let me, yeah, so that’s, there we go. So we’re were laid out. So you really don’t need to cover this with a hat. You just were, you know, when you’re in your home, uh, and um, it’s got a real, um, you know, we would basically hugged your head. Uh, but it’s so different than the, I mean this is a lot more expensive. Why? Because it’s more difficult to make. I’d make them in lower volume, but some patients, you know, they, well, I want that one. And uh, so that’s fine. But other words, bottom line, you want to send them out with, with a light device, preferably a laser gap. So whichever one you use. MMM. You know, as long as they get a laser cap,Dr. Anil Shah: (15:33) do you find a difference in the two different devices as far as results? And so if somebody said, hey, I want the difference between this versus that, and to say, Hey, guess what? I want to make sure I get the best possible result. Is there a difference? Is there a 5% difference at 20% difference?Michael Rabin: (15:47) Yeah. Again, if we go back to this curve, it hasn’t been study. It hasn’t, it hasn’t been studied. You know, I think that all of the devices, you know, if you look, if you look here, these are some of the over the counter devices. I don’t really want to name names, but you can read them. I don’t like to upset, you know, competitors, they’re all, everybody’s doing a good job in the industry. Uh, your industry gets a little tricky. I mean, folks road need to look at at, you know, um, there’s a, there’s hair surgeries that are being performed, uh, offshore that are troublesome. Uh, and so in our industry, in the, in the US, I know got the devices are all pretty good, but let these over the counter devices are way down on the biologic effects curve. See, that’s the biological effects curb right there.Michael Rabin: (16:35) And so, uh, like, you know, one of these lower powered ones is way down here on the curve compared to a laser. Got To 24 laser cat 300 is a little higher on the curve. Uh, laser gas 80 is still above that. 80 diodes is still above, you know, the vast offbrand laser cap. Uh, and that’s because the, the best off brand laser cap decided they’re going to do a six minute, five or six minute continuous power. And they turned down the, they were unable to overdrive the lasers and so that was their choice. But I, in my opinion, they’re underpowered.Dr. Anil Shah: (17:15) So that’s something that people talk about, like the way you get treated. And uh, classically you do a 30 minute pulse every other day or some people talk about doing six minutes everyday with the continuous. Um, let’s talk about those two different protocols. Sure. Your thoughts on both of those and yeah,Michael Rabin: (17:36) 30 minute calls with a 30 minute poles. If you look at my chart, 30 minute pulse on, on a, on a to 24 is delivering about 3.23 joules per square centimeter. A six minute continuous with the best offbrand gap out there is doing that Warren jewel. So we’re getting three times the power would that not because we’re better, we’re just the circuits different and, and we’re choosing a pulsed over a 30 minute rather than a continuous at six.Dr. Anil Shah: (18:08) No, that was the pulse versus continuous, let’s say, because it can delay your Cutco, continuous or pulse. It always goes continuum out.Michael Rabin: (18:15) We, I’ve got a continuous protocol, like this is a continuous path. I can do a continuous protocol because again, all these devices that are on the biologic effects curve, I just prefer the pulse, that 30 minutes because I want more energy per square centimeter that, that’s my opinion now based on his research.Dr. Anil Shah: (18:33) Sure. Do you think it penetrates deeper pulse because, uh, um, of kind of relaxing the cells and Melanin doesn’t have attempts to block it then it hits it? Or what are your thoughts?Michael Rabin: (18:42) There’s more evidence that Paul said certain herps, you know, certain frequencies is better than a continuous. Uh, there’s more evidence, uh, of that, but I couldn’t tell you, oh, you know, better than continuous for here. We go,Dr. Anil Shah: (18:57) um, and then the protocol, why, why the protocol? 30 minutes every other day. Like if I said, hey, guess what, I don’t like 30 minutes every day when I want to do is when I brushed my teeth, I’m gonna throw my laser cap on. Um, I actually kind of do this. Sometimes I won’t lie and say, Hey, guess what? It takes me 10 minutes to brush my teeth and wash my face and put stuff on. And I’m going to do that every day rather than doing 30 minutes every other day. Why 30 minutes every other day versus doing 15 minutes a day versus decibels?Michael Rabin: (19:25) Well, simple answer. The original devices that were studied, we’ll go devices. You’d have to go into the office and to receive your treatment. And so they had, I think our two, two times a week protocol, uh, certainly not an everyday protocol because you couldn’t get in there. And then, uh, the, the, uh, the comb device, I forget what their protocol was, but then there was some other ailment devices, the I grow example, uh, where, uh, they determine we’re going to use that in every other day protocol a couple times a week protocol. And so those were the predicates that were studied at those frequencies. So nobody has studied in everyday protocol, but there’s plenty of doctors you say, okay, I’m just going to tell my patient 20 minutes every day or six minute continuous every day or it’s all good.Dr. Anil Shah: (20:19) And the reason I’ve done that is because if you look at some of the led devices, not for hair, but for like kind of healing red light for postsurgery protocols and things that nature, lots of them you use, um, smaller amounts of time every day. Um, so my thought was, hey, guess what, let’s incorporate this because Mitochondria, Mitochondria, let’s stimulate mitochondrial, let’s get more increased cellular activity. And so that was my thought process. But again, I have no idea whether that’s a better protocol, worst protocol, but that was just kind of my, my variant. When it also out of convenience, I just can’t remember if I do something every day. I remember it. If I do something every other day, I forget because if I work out every day, I’m good. If I work out every other day, I’ll forget and I won’t do it.Michael Rabin: (21:01) Well, these are positioned devices. These are my position. Only physicians can do whatever protocols they want. I mean, the light is generally safe. I mean, you can tell your patients were until the battery runs out, you know, where for two hours, you know, theoretically there can be an overtreatment. It’s by basic. There could be an overtreatment, you know, 10 hours, 20 hours, you know, we don’t, we don’t know. It’s theoretical at these powers. You know, it’s still a low power, even though it’s five milliwatt even up to 50 even up to 500 milliwatt bridge, scored centimeter, it’s still considered low pal. You’re not cooking anything. No killing it.Dr. Anil Shah: (21:37) Okay. And so someone who is trying it and say, I’m going to put a laser cap on, what is the amount of time before you say, Hey, guess what, you’re going to see something different. And uh, what, what are your thoughts?Michael Rabin: (21:49) Well, I think that you ought to give a patient, uh, four to six months. I think you ought to give them four to six months before you bring them back. And then we have a one year return policy where patients that, you know, anytime in the first year can bring you back for any reason, no reason at all to the physician, then the physician will refund 75% of the purchase price and then we work it out with a doctor. Uh, but, but yeah, I would give it a good four to six months before you bring the patient back for repeat photography and even a whole year to to, you know, cause, you know, growing hair is, it’s a slow, slow businessDr. Anil Shah: (22:26) and I think that’s kind of speaks to me the quality of what is your gap in this x by one of the things I’m a believer in laser cap did because, um, anytime you have a company that believes in its product and says, hey, guess what, if you don’t believe in it as a patient, we’re going to, we’re going to work with you. And, um, anytime I’ve not gone quality with something, um, whether it’s a, it’s a vitamin, it’s a healthcare equipment, uh, it’s a car. When you buy a quality product, you know, you have a quality, you know, you have the best item and you just feel good about it because whatever reason you feel like you’re covering your back versus if you buy an inferior product, you’re like, well, it didn’t work well. You were using the wrong thing. Um, uh, something happened to this product.Dr. Anil Shah: (23:04) You know, you’re covered, you know, you’re in good hands, you know, your power output is going to be consistent. You’re not worried about, you know, getting you what, 10 joules and one jewels. And I see that with a lot of my lasers in the office that just some of the older times you would get different things they were tweaked. Uh, and now the newer lasers are not doing that, but I’m imagining it’s something like a laser cap that you might have some of the other products that peek out and they go down. Uh, is that,Michael Rabin: (23:27) I think there’s trouble with, uh, some of the manufacturing with some of the devices. I mean, there’s some very good, uh, laser caps that are manufactured, but then there’s a lot of copies where, uh, you know, I think that there, I don’t think there’s any safety issues, although you, there can be battery safety issues because you’re on to let the on battery. Uh, but, but, um, I think you get problems with lights out and just, you know, Defax just, just, just issues that, uh, you know, we handle, we have, we have a lifetime warranty policy on the devices, so it’s covered for life. We have a small replacement fee between three and five years and then a slight no replacement fee in the first three years. Small one, $250 in, in three to five years and then $500 after five years.Dr. Anil Shah: (24:16) I mean, that’s, that’s an amazing, that’s an amazing product. Uh, you know, cover it to something and speaks to it again. Uh, a couple of other questions. So with laser cap, do you notice me, you have a lot of physicians who use this and believe in this product. Do you notice any sort of protocols that people are doing that say, Hey, guess what? This works well with laser cap. Is it like, hey guys, laser captain Rogaine, things happen. PRP, laser cap and [inaudible]Michael Rabin: (24:41) it is synergistic with, with all the hair regrows in hair regrowth. You don’t, you don’t want to do experiments on the patients. You don’t want to, I mean, some docs will say, well, let me start young laser cap and then I’m gonna add the road gang as a topical finasteride or this or that. But really, you want to just come out of the gate and you know, these patients want hair regrowth. They don’t want to experiments by different mechanisms. You know, the finasteride is the DHT blocker. The minoxidil is in calcium channel. The, the laser, the light is improve cellular respiration in the Mitochondria. The PRP is, you know, in that, in that regenerative genre, we’re at the tip of the iceberg with that because the, you know, with the PRP, they’re adding stem and, uh, and, uh, all sorts of ECM stimulants and, uh, activating the platelets. And there’s a whole slew of things. Light is synergistic, I believe with all of it. It’s additive and can be synergistic. So for example, uh, uh, uh, ledger gapless Minoxidil. So when you put this on, if you put your, your minoxidil product on and you put, even though the manual says, Oh, don’t you,Dr. Anil Shah: (25:51) he’s on what they should you put Minoxidil on first?Michael Rabin: (25:55) Let’s just put it on first and then put the cap on. You get some warm, you get an occlusive effect, you get a big bump in absorption of whatever you put on.Dr. Anil Shah: (26:05) That’s a great tip because I’ve actually been doing that the other way. I’ve been doing the cat then the Minoxidil, so I should actually switch that around. So that’s niceMichael Rabin: (26:13) patients that you’re making a systemic effect. So you gotta be careful. I mean, not that I documented that, but there’s, you’re going to get an increased absorption. You know the dermatologist did the Vaseline studies in the Saran wrap study, you know, where they put the topical on and they put this early on, you know, big bump and absorption and it’s a similar effect with the occlusion. All right. And then there could be some direct effects with the, with the light, you increased circulation, a nitric oxide formation, you know, these things may be contributing to the effect of Minoxidil. We haven’t studied it, but the sense is that it’s a good idea. There’s real synergy and then we’ll PRP. That’s whole another issue. Beer. Prp always should be followed with laser cap. Always should be followed with photo medicine because there’s, there’s similar processes going on. Uh, uh, the, the, the PRP and the growth factors are supposed to, you know, stimulate indogenous stamped, uh, you know, recruit the endogenous stem to improve the, uh, the, the follicle function. Uh, the light does a similar thing and it’s ongoing. You know, after the PRP is done,Dr. Anil Shah: (27:26) you’re, you have a new laboratory and new scientific research part about laser cap, which I think is also exciting that I don’t think there’s any other company who’s doing thatMichael Rabin: (27:34) to do that.Dr. Anil Shah: (27:35) Can you tell me, uh, some of the things that at least that you’re able to talk about that that’s going on over there and some of the things that you’re discovering with this, this new arm of laser cap?Michael Rabin: (27:45) So, so we’re, we’re trying to put together a PRP plus photo medicine for hair regrowth registry trial. And the idea is that we work with doctors, we look at their PRP, what’s the cellular makeup of their PR big? Are they using one times platelet two times, four times, eight times? Are they using that, you know, what protocol are they activating, are they doing using additives, et cetera. And then with or without photo man, we encourage all the dots to use the photo mat. But the idea is that we try to correlate PRP. We try to characterize the PRP and correlated with Eric Grothe outcomes. So we also ask them for baseline. We will ask them for baseline photography, trigrams whatever they’re using to measure the baseline and the progress and see if we can draw some, uh, you know, some correlations between, you know, PRP characterization, use of photo mad, and we have a photo mat optics lab set up to, to measure, uh, outlets. So if they say, oh, we’re using a Theraderm where we’re using this off brand or that brand, well, we know what those outputs are, uh, that we know what the, what the, um, what the energies are per square centimeter on those devices. And so we again, are looking to try to correlate these treatments with air regretted facts.Dr. Anil Shah: (29:09) Yeah, I think that’s an important part. Begins with PRP itself. There’s so many versions of it that are out and um, it, it does a disservice to PRP because there’s people who are getting, um, PRP to stocksy, probably not even as a hire that much higher playlist than normal. And yet people have two times, three times they’re actually getting improved [inaudible] hair results. And we’ve tried previous protocols that PRP in the past that have not been as effective as some of our I went to, we’re using right now. Um, so I think that’s an exciting part to see that science kind of an inherent kind of going together and um, you’re seeing synergies working across fields, which is I think, amazing for the field.Michael Rabin: (29:45) Yeah, that’s what I want to document that because there’s a lot of anecdotal, I get a, you’ve had experiences to other your colleagues. I’ve had experiences where they start with one kid and they start with one protocol and they don’t like it for whatever reason. You know, there could be some pain, there could be some bruising that not, not good results. Uh, uh, and then they switch to another protocol and they’re getting results for, we’d like to formalize that.Dr. Anil Shah: (30:13) What’s the craziest hat you’ve seen over a laser cap that’s much covered up with the craziest activity you’ve seen someone do?Michael Rabin: (30:21) Oh, well I would always jive with mine that, you know, when I pretransplant when I was trying to grow my hair, I would always jog with mine. So, uh, that was always fun. I put my minoxidil on, put my cap on and I did pretty well with it. But, uh, I ended up with them do a major transplant just cause I just didn’t have any hair.Dr. Anil Shah: (30:42) Um, and then the other question on that, so, so you, you basically any had on that, do you think there’s an issue with heat? If you wear like a winter hat over probably has no effect on him.Michael Rabin: (30:51) Well, the laser cap generate some warm, uh, some of the, the, um, you know, the consumer devices don’t generate much warrant, but they’re not putting out any power. The laser could have generated some warm. So it’s advisable to where, uh, you know, not where are having, you know, heavy hands. Yeah.Dr. Anil Shah: (31:09) Awesome. Okay, cool. Cool. And then people sometimes always ask the question, am I going to get more of a result with short hair versus lawn care or you think there’s no difference?Michael Rabin: (31:17) Well, a hair will block light, but we put out a lot of light with these devices and that’s number one. Number two, uh, you’re using the cap because we can see a lot of your scalp. And so if we can see a lot of your scalp, there’s lots of photons getting to and through your scalp. Uh, on the other hand, if you’ve got big, dark opaque hair, yeah, you’re not, not as, as you’re going to be some black, but here’s a light blockage. Uh, now ways to mitigate that. Again, the manual says, Hey, don’t let your hair don’t use, don’t let your, but that it’s okay, you can do that. This is moisture seal. So patients with, if it got long, you know, they got thick hair, they can wet it, comb it back, exposed maximum scout, put their minoxidil on wherever they want to do and uh, you know, with the doctor’s permission and uh, but the lace cap on them.Dr. Anil Shah: (32:05) So, so the only thing, so what is the restriction with laser gap? So people, people talk about that a lot. Um, is there basically don’t wear it in the rain? Is My understanding. Um, and showered with it, obviously.Michael Rabin: (32:16) Yeah. I mean it’s low voltage. You’re not going to electric give yourself, well, I, you know, you don’t really want to, you know, put it, get weird in the bathtub was saying I been really, the only contrary indication is if you’ve got a neoplasm that being directly, you know, a cancer on your scalp, but you know what Bazell or a squamous cell or whatever it is, um, uh, and you’re, you know, you’re directly irradiating that your photo stimulating not only your follicles but, but a neoplasm. And so you’ll, you could wrap up. Uh, I mean, and it’s not, it’s not a crisis because those are slow growing, but then you always have to worry about, um, uh, um, melanoma. Do you know if you’ve got a, but you know, but, and that’s your job as a doc, you know, you need to look patients over.Dr. Anil Shah: (33:05) Absolutely. Yeah. It’s one of the areas that’s oftentimes missed his scalp. Melanoma, it’s one of the, uh, the bad spots that melanoma can exist. Uh, the back of the scalp are two areas that patients oftentimes they melanomas missed. Yeah,Michael Rabin: (33:21) yeah. I hear covering.Dr. Anil Shah: (33:22) Um, but most of my patients are, when you laser cap, like you’re talking about, uh, the hair obstruct unit is not as much of an issue. Um, I don’t think I have so much see through, but I do have some see through, so,Michael Rabin: (33:35) oh, but you get a lot of hair. I would advise you, you know, wet and you put the Minoxidil on.Dr. Anil Shah: (33:40) Uh, I’ll probably change that protocol, put that under, that’s a great tip. So can you keep your hair wet? But oxycodone put the cap on. Um, I still probably will do my brushing teeth protocol that I do at night just because otherwise I don’t do everything every day I forget. Yeah.Michael Rabin: (33:53) And that’s better for the Minoxidil. Minoxidil is in every day. So if it’s supposed to be twice a day, but you could do it once a day. If you do it my way, you do do it once.Dr. Anil Shah: (34:03) Um, so where do you see laser cap in five years, 10 years, anywhere where you say, Hey, guess what? This is going to go, uh, as laser cap going to stay here. Is it going to go other spots? Are People, is it going to be, uh, um, different power outputs? Where do you see, where do you see the product going in the notes?Michael Rabin: (34:20) Shame. We’re going to increase the power and the energy, and I’ve got some technology that, um, some promising technology that, uh, this time I might get the patents. Right. Who knows? Um, you know, protect all the doctors out there. Uh, um, uh, so yeah, I think we want to see more power. Uh, we set up a cell lab, a PRP still lab. We’re all, we’re also setting up a wetland to do some bench studies on, um, uh, hair follicles in the, in the petri dish, in the culture dish. So we can directly or radiate them and take certain measurements, you know, mulcify the dermal Papilla and measure growth factors and look for changes. So that wet lab is going to give us some good information to try zero in on, um, uh, on, you know, if I go back to that by phase it goes, was funds curve, should we be here or should would be over here or should we leave there? We want to kind of just try to zero in on optimal power and time. Uh, and then wave length, there’s a little debate, but most of these are a red light. Uh, six, six, six, 50, six, 60 nanometer. There’s some thought, and maybe we were, we should look at infrared, but it would, the bench work lately is showing that the red at six 60 seems to be working with the Bass, you know, so why change?Dr. Anil Shah: (35:46) Exactly. And so for power, for consumers, looking at different models, it’s not just the number of diodes. Um, it’s not just that power. It’s not just the area. It’s not just continuous versus Po. It’s kind of like all of that makes everything better. Is that true?Michael Rabin: (36:06) You need diode because you want to get some coverage. You don’t want to have, you know, you don’t want to just have a few diodes, uh, uh, uh, across a large area because then there’s a lot of follicles that aren’t getting much light. So you want to get some uniformity, which means you need more dire. Uh, but then it’s what those guys are putting out, you know, which the power, it’s the milliwatts that they’re, that they’re putting out. Uh, and then the time period cause middle, that’s kind of time. That’s the jewel. That’s the energy. A four centimeter is a, you know, is the, is is really the ultimate measurement. Yeah. The, the energy per square centimeter and jewels.Dr. Anil Shah: (36:47) Perfect. Perfect. Okay. So last question I always ask everyone is, um, what are, um, just in general for the, uh, kind of off topic things, what are three things you wish to see different and just, I say healthcare or healthiness or any of those things. It doesn’t have to be related to hair, can be related to Herrick, can involve anything. So three things. You can make it, two things. Uh, but um, what are three things you would love to see changed in that aspect?Michael Rabin: (37:16) Well, I think that, um, I, first off, I think you guys are doing some incredible work. You know, the, the, the plastic surgeons in the transplant guys and gals are doing, you know, miracles with, with patients and, you know, medically we’re, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re there to, to, uh, to support and to, um, you know, slow the loss, stop loss, reverse that we’re there to help. But the surgery you folks do is encrypt that. I’d say that said, don’t do much different other than just keep improving what you’re doing on the inside. You know, the, the medicines that we take, uh, the, the diseases that we get, you know, the heart disease, the Alzheimer’s, um, uh, I didn’t, it’s all preventable. I think it’s all, I think it, I think we can live to a ripe old age and then drop dead. That’s what I think.Michael Rabin: (38:09) And I think it, um, we’ve got tremendous environmental toxins. Uh, the food that we eat, the air that we breathe, you know, everything around us. There’s all sorts of toxins and pollutants. Um, uh, but there may be, you know, there may be some ways to mitigate that, to, to manage that, uh, is the Diet can change. Uh, and the medicines that we take. Um, I’ve been turned on recently to worth of molecular medicine. I know that it’s probably not something that resonates with you, but the anti aging doctors, uh, who are on the cutting edge of things, who are, you know, do an intravenous vitamins and, you know, doing ti relations. And I think there were, I really think they’re onto something and I think like can play a big role in that as well in, uh, in, in keeping patients healthy.Dr. Anil Shah: (39:00) Oh, actually the anti aging part that you talk about is actually super fascinating for us because with hair, um, we don’t just use one modality. I mean we always wanted to be on the cutting edge, so things that we’re using in the office include that this PRP, but things like exosomes, which are messengers sent back and forth with the sales. As you know, I’m also a working with, um, a bunch of other things, growth factors. So kind of all of these things, stimulating hair, all kind of working together. And it’s interesting also, you mentioned environmental toxins because all of these things, environmental food toxins affect our mitochondria. And with the laser cap, one of the things you’re going to do is you’re going to be stimulating your mitochondria to improve that. Uh, so they all kind of work together. So get rid of those toxins to your mitochondria can work better, but also stimulate them.Dr. Anil Shah: (39:46) Um, and then, uh, so all of that’s working together. Um, I think, uh, amazing what you’ve done, amazing what you’ve accomplished. And, um, imitation is the best form of flattery. Although if I had a company where people are copying me and, and sort of ripping off my product, I don’t if I think that that way, but um, uh, and I think there’s probably more doctors who, uh, need to personally. Thank you. I’ll thank you in person. Thank you for all that you’ve done for, um, the science of lasers inherit. Thank you for my patients. Thank you for myself cause I use it.Michael Rabin: (40:20) You are welcome and keep growing. Keep buying taps and growing hair.Dr. Anil Shah: (40:24) There we go. I want my hair next time I talked to you. I want it to be this big.Michael Rabin: (40:31) Your hair looks awesome.Dr. Anil Shah: (40:33) So awesome. All right. Thank you so much. Uh, and uh, hope to talk to you again soon.Michael Rabin: (40:38) Hey, and I look forward to seeing all the video. This is excitingDr. Anil Shah: (40:43) call. We’ll uh, we’ll have it all ready for you and it’ll be good. I think it’ll be good stuff for us too. Thank you.Michael Rabin: (40:48) Thank you. Bye Bye. Bye Bye.